Discussion:
Scrolling differences when using Trackpad or Mouse-Wheel
(too old to reply)
Michael Starke
2018-06-19 09:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi list,

I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.

Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.

I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution

SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based

- Michael

___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com

___k o n t a k t____
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***@hicknhack.com

___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
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Jack Brindle
2018-06-20 04:03:05 UTC
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What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?

Jack
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution
SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based
- Michael
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com
___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden
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Alastair Houghton
2018-06-20 07:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?
This is a very good point. I have mice from a number of vendors (including Apple), and scroll wheel behaviour definitely differs significantly in some cases; also, it can matter whether or not you install the vendor’s software (mice usually work reasonably well without, but installing and running the vendor’s software can change things significantly).

Kind regards,

Alastair.

--
http://alastairs-place.net

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Michael Starke
2018-06-20 11:53:33 UTC
Permalink
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.

I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.

I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.

- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?
Jack
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution
SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based
- Michael
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com
___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden
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www.hicknhack-software.com

___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
***@hicknhack.com

___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
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Richard Charles
2018-06-20 15:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Starke
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.
I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.
I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.
I just download the MacPass application to test the scrolling repose with a mouse wheel.

https://github.com/MacPass/MacPass/releases

I launched the application and got the following alert.

“MacPass” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. Your security preferences allow installation of only apps from the App Store and identified developers.

Why is this app not signed with a developer certificate?

--Richard Charles

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Michael Starke
2018-06-20 19:19:19 UTC
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I'm providing a development snapshot that is build using travis and I did not want to vent my certificate to any third parties even if the setup is considered save.

Official release (like 0.7.3) are properly signed.

- Michael
Post by Richard Charles
Post by Michael Starke
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.
I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.
I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.
I just download the MacPass application to test the scrolling repose with a mouse wheel.
https://github.com/MacPass/MacPass/releases
I launched the application and got the following alert.
“MacPass” can’t be opened because it is from an unidentified developer. Your security preferences allow installation of only apps from the App Store and identified developers.
Why is this app not signed with a developer certificate?
--Richard Charles
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com

___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
***@hicknhack.com

___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden

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Michael Starke
2018-06-21 07:32:38 UTC
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I never ran the checks so deeply, I just codesign the app and never had problems.

spctl --verbose=4 --assess --type=execute MacPass\ 0.7.3.app
MacPass 0.7.3.app: accepted
source=Developer ID

Only type=open fails, which is something I never thought about, can anyone point me towards how to fix this?
Post by Michael Starke
Official release (like 0.7.3) are properly signed
FYI, signed, yes. Properly, it doesn’t appear so.
spctl —verbose=4 --assess --type open /Users/user/Downloads/MacPass.app
/Users/user/Downloads/MacPass.app: rejected
source=Insufficient Context
Best
Phil
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Jack Brindle
2018-06-21 00:01:19 UTC
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Logitech mice don’t have drivers for the Mac these days, but the Options software can add interesting capabilities. It is not required for general use, but is required if you want any of the additional buttons or features to be used.

The next question I would ask is how you have the mouse attached to the computer - Unifying receiver or bluetooth (BLE). It does make a difference, we have seen interesting lag issues with BLE that don’t exist with the Unifying receiver. If you are using BLE, I would suggest plugging in a Unifying receiver that is paired to the mouse and trying the mouse with that method of communications.

I’m not saying this is a mouse issue, just trying to make sure it isn’t one.

Jack Brindle
Logitech Engineering
Post by Michael Starke
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.
I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.
I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.
- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?
Jack
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution
SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based
- Michael
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com
___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden
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___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
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Michael Starke
2018-06-21 07:42:07 UTC
Permalink
The mice where all connected via USB. No wireless mice where used or tested.

Connections where:
Mouse - MacBook
Mouse - Dell Hub - MacBook
Mouse - Apple Keyboard - Dell Hub - MacBook

Checking the Trace in Instruments reveals that the scrolling via mouse wheel get processed differently than scrolling on the trackpad.

- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
Logitech mice don’t have drivers for the Mac these days, but the Options software can add interesting capabilities. It is not required for general use, but is required if you want any of the additional buttons or features to be used.
The next question I would ask is how you have the mouse attached to the computer - Unifying receiver or bluetooth (BLE). It does make a difference, we have seen interesting lag issues with BLE that don’t exist with the Unifying receiver. If you are using BLE, I would suggest plugging in a Unifying receiver that is paired to the mouse and trying the mouse with that method of communications.
I’m not saying this is a mouse issue, just trying to make sure it isn’t one.
Jack Brindle
Logitech Engineering
Post by Michael Starke
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.
I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.
I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.
- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?
Jack
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution
SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based
- Michael
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com
___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden
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___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
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Jack Brindle
2018-06-21 15:13:48 UTC
Permalink
At this point I am comfortable eliminating the mouse as an issue for you. You are right, mouse wheel processing is different. It came into the system well before the trackpad support. I believe macOS is in the second or third generation of trackpad support, with the last change adding gesture and depth control.

Good luck finding the problem!

Jack
Post by Michael Starke
The mice where all connected via USB. No wireless mice where used or tested.
Mouse - MacBook
Mouse - Dell Hub - MacBook
Mouse - Apple Keyboard - Dell Hub - MacBook
Checking the Trace in Instruments reveals that the scrolling via mouse wheel get processed differently than scrolling on the trackpad.
- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
Logitech mice don’t have drivers for the Mac these days, but the Options software can add interesting capabilities. It is not required for general use, but is required if you want any of the additional buttons or features to be used.
The next question I would ask is how you have the mouse attached to the computer - Unifying receiver or bluetooth (BLE). It does make a difference, we have seen interesting lag issues with BLE that don’t exist with the Unifying receiver. If you are using BLE, I would suggest plugging in a Unifying receiver that is paired to the mouse and trying the mouse with that method of communications.
I’m not saying this is a mouse issue, just trying to make sure it isn’t one.
Jack Brindle
Logitech Engineering
Post by Michael Starke
I'm using a Logitech mouse without any additional drivers installed.
I tried using a couple of Logitech mouses, directly attached to the Laptop, attached to the Hub inside the monitor, nothing changes. Every mouse behaves the same way that is, it's lagging on the initial scroll.
I'll try to find some more mice from different vendors to see if this makes any difference. And I'll run Instruments to see if I can identify the bottleneck.
- Michael
Post by Jack Brindle
What’s the mouse? It’s not from Apple, so what is it, how is it connected and does it use any software to help it work?
Jack
Post by Michael Starke
Hi list,
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I'm gladi if anyone could point me to a solution
SDK is 10.12, deployment target is 10.10 and the NSTableView is NSView based
- Michael
___m i c h a e l s t a r k e____
geschäftsführer
HicknHack Software GmbH
www.hicknhack-software.com
___k o n t a k t____
+49 (170) 3686136
___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
geschäftsführer - maik lathan | andreas reischuck | michael starke
bayreuther straße 32
01187 dresden
amtsgericht dresden HRB 30351
sitz - dresden
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___H i c k n H a c k S o f t w a r e G m b H____
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Richard Charles
2018-06-23 15:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Starke
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I downloaded MacPass 0.7.3 and created a new document with 200 entries in what I believe to be the MPTableView. I tried scrolling with a Logitech M510 mouse wheel using the standard apple driver (no custom driver installed). I also tried scrolling with track pad on a MacBook Air.

Normally a mouse wheel with detents will have acceleration when scrolling but no momentum. Normally trackpad will have momentum when scrolling. This behavior can be seen when scrolling in TextEdit, Contacts, and Mail.

When scrolling in MacPass with a mouse wheel the initial delay I believe is due to acceleration which appears to be normal. However when mouse wheel movement has stopped scrolling still persists for a short period of time almost appearing to be momentum. This is not normal. A mouse wheel has no momentum if it has detents. So this is a puzzle.

--Richard Charles

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Rick Mann
2018-06-23 19:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Charles
Post by Michael Starke
I'm currently trying to find the bottleneck in my app MacPass that's causing the scrolling in the main table to be sluggish.
Before diving deeply into Instruments to find the culprit I realized that scrolling with the trackpad is butter-smooth but scrolling using the mouse wheel is rather slow. When I start to scroll down, there's a slight delay but then the scrolling works smooth. This is not the case when scrolling up or when scrolling using the trackpad.
I downloaded MacPass 0.7.3 and created a new document with 200 entries in what I believe to be the MPTableView. I tried scrolling with a Logitech M510 mouse wheel using the standard apple driver (no custom driver installed). I also tried scrolling with track pad on a MacBook Air.
Normally a mouse wheel with detents will have acceleration when scrolling but no momentum. Normally trackpad will have momentum when scrolling. This behavior can be seen when scrolling in TextEdit, Contacts, and Mail.
When scrolling in MacPass with a mouse wheel the initial delay I believe is due to acceleration which appears to be normal. However when mouse wheel movement has stopped scrolling still persists for a short period of time almost appearing to be momentum. This is not normal. A mouse wheel has no momentum if it has detents. So this is a puzzle.
Unrelated, but I felt compelled to rant: I hate websites that try to implement their own momentum scrolling. With the Apple Mighty Mouse (still the best mouse they made, despite its flaws), those websites continue to scroll a bit after I've stopped moving the ball (which should stop the scroll dead in its tracks). This is not a mouse or driver problem, it's a misinterpretation of low-level events by badly-designed Javascript.
--
Rick Mann
***@latencyzero.com


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